19 September 2011

Homophobia Smackdown 101

1. It’s unbiblical: That may or may not be true – there are lots of people who argue that the bible is at least inconsistent on this issue, and that Jesus wasn’t much bothered. I don’t care. I’m not a Christian, and Christianity is not state religion, and I don’t care what the bible says. If you follow the bible, that’s your choice. But you can’t selectively turn biblical bits into secular law.

2. If we let the gays do their thing, we also need to let rapists and pedophiles do their thing: Err, no. Come on, use your brain: There’s a substantial difference between a situation of consenting adults and a situation where one is the aggressor and the other is the victim. If you don’t understand those basic concepts, you shouldn’t be out and about here in cyberspace.

3. If we let gays do their thing, MANKIND WILL DIE OUT: Nope. You can’t catch the gay. You are the best example for that: you foam at the mouth rather than get all hot and bothered in a nice way when you think about two guys kissing, right? See. There’ll always be a gay minority. It’s a minority. Look up the concept of the bell curve. And bear in mind: gay people have reproductive organs. Many use them.

4. Even animals have more common sense and won’t do this: Not true. Plenty of evidence from wildlife that they do do it. And gaily so.

5. But you can’t compare humans to animals: I didn’t – you started that line of argument.

6. It’s unAfrican: Me, I don’t know. I’m not African. I think all the African gay men and women might have a thing or five to say about this. And they can perfectly well speak for themselves.

7. What if the children see it? Yeah, then what? Nothing.

8. Anal sex is wrong – the anus wasn’t made for this: If you think anal sex is wrong, then don’t have it. Not all gay people have anal sex, and there are plenty of straight guys (and women) who get all bright eyed and bushy tailed about it.

9. It’s a lifestyle choice: Hardly (never mind that if I chose it, what difference would it make?). The foam-at-the-mouth hysteria in Uganda, ‘corrective rape’ and other such charitable, love-your-neighbour activities are the best example. It’s extremely unlikely that anyone would choose that kind of hatred and threat of violence just for kicks.

10. I have no issues with gay people as long as they don't chat me up - then I'll hit them: Easy, my friend. If that happens, be civilised and say 'thanks, no, but thanks'. If I hit everyone who chatted me up and who I'm not interested in, there'd be lots of black eyes, and I'm not Marilyn Monroe by any stretch of imagination. I say 'thanksbutnothanks'. To all those good Christian married guys, too.

11. Gay guys are sick, but lesbians are kinda cool: You're not talking about lesbians, you're talking about two straight women getting it on with each other for the sake of a straight man. As with the vast majority of couples, two lesbians won't be very keen on having you drool away when they get it on with each other. Pretty much like you won't slap your best buddy on the shoulder and ask whether you can watch while he's doing his wife.

EDITED TO ADD:

12. I don't understand it/I find it disgusting: That may well be the case, and you're of course entitled to think so, but that's irrelevant. I don't understand how people can spend every Saturday watching football, and I may find people chewing with their mouth open disgusting. My problem to deal with.

13. ... but don't rub it in our faces/force it down our throats: Most people actually don't - as one gay Nigerian blogger said, she never wanted to talk about her sex and love live in public because she thought it was private. But since so many other people were talking about her private sex and love life, she decided to speak out. Also: It's perfectly ok for a heterosexual man to post a picture of his wife with, say, a mention that he thinks his wife is cute. Normal behavior, right? The equivalent from a gay man, however, is suddenly 'rubbing it in our faces'.

More importantly, perhaps, the legal situation in Uganda now longer allows the option of 'as long as they do whatever they do behind closed doors, we'll all be fine'. Because even what people do behind closed doors is no longer legal, and can land them in prison for many years.

14. But they are recruiting people! This argument is, funnily enough, usually brought up by people with the most vociferous disgust of homosexuality. So you're so incredibly disgusted and repulsed - but you argue that not-gay people can be 'recruited'? EDITED TO ADD (7 July 2015): I will NOT publish any comments that make the same dumb statements that I have already refuted above('But we will all die out!', 'Can I now marry my dog?'). So save yourself the energy.

31 comments:

  1. would you be ok with incest between 2 'consenting adults'?

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  2. Brilliant - covers about every "intelligent" point brought up by gay bashers. Add bestiality to #2.

    I knew the incest argument would come out. Warning: This discussion will get tiring fast (if it picks up), as it will end up with other ridiculous forms of reasoning and the quoting of religious material. I have had this discussion a number of times.

    Here's an old thread in one of the more mature Kenyan forums (took place after the gay marriage between two Kenyans in the UK).

    Oh, the fallout!

    It covers most of the things here, the incest angle that has been introduced by anon above, and other arguments - http://m.wazua.co.ke/forum.aspx?g=posts&t=2539

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  3. Incest is not the subject of this post, so won't be discussed here.

    Religious material can't be brought into the discussion either because of point 1. Easy peasy :)

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  4. "You're not talking about lesbians, you're talking about two straight women getting it on with each other for the sake of a straight man."

    I honestly could not tell the difference.

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  5. On this topic I will not be very nice. You have advanced silly typical pro-gay arguments, the truth is that most people be they African, Asian, European find homosexuality disgusting, it doesn't matter that a minority of their members practice it. Gays are a fringe dark and destructive element in our societies, sort of like drug users.

    The fact that you seem comfortable with your kids(if you have kids at all) watching gay sex speaks volume of your morals and state of mind. You have taken your "liberal" attitude to life to anarchic levels, tolerating gay attitudes is like tolerating anarchy.

    I find your argument on animals even more laughable. We have definitely reached the age of stupid, freedom must be checked. Soon, even killing will be condoned, it's a choice after all to kill somebody.

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    1. Low IQ & Conservative Beliefs Linked to Prejudice
      http://www.livescience.com/18132-intelligence-social-conservatism-racism.html

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    2. funny enough black people were abused and enslaved...mmm..let me see...in Europe, South America, North America, and Asia as well simply because the rest of the world thought of them as inferior and as not human...re-enacting the same in the 21 millennium because of your belief or 'feelings'...is tantamount to the same crime...

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  6. You don't need to be nice, not-enough-balls-to-leave-your-name anonymous - but you need to bring the arguments. And you didn't:

    I generally don't think it's a good idea for adults, gay or straight, to bonk in front of children. But kids are perfectly able to deal with an uncle and his boyfriend, and gay parents have parented perfectly well adjusted kids.

    Animals: not my argument - it's an argument often advanced by homophobes in both versions I cite above. I don't think animals are all that relevant since the praying mantis, for example, bites its partner's head off after sex and I find that messy with the sheets, plus illegal.

    Gays a dark fringe of society? Not sure who you hang out with. I know plenty of gay people who work, play, pay taxes, do community service, love and help their friends and family. Just like everyone else. Nothing dark and hidden. They pretty much do all that in broad daylight, except for their loving (well, here in Kenya at least).

    Find the common trait: Johanna Sigurdardottir, Iceland's Prime Minister, Guido Westerwelle, Germany's Foreign Minister, Ole von Beust, Hamburg's former mayor, Elton John, singer/songwriter, prolific musician, HIV/AIDS fundraiser, Ellen de Generes and Anderson Cooper, media professionals, Martina Navratilova, tennis player, ... All accomplished. All probably way more accomplished than you. All gay.

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  7. And regarding condoning killing - see point 2. It doesn't apply.

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  8. people are notoriously diverse and so are their sexual fetishes.You've travelled wide and your exposure has given you the chance to be liberal.BUT,,,bring yourself to our level.The fact that there are still people that refer to ipads,iphones,computers and cellphones using the collective term 'machines' should inform you that most are still in the dark.Now picture this I go to Dibuoro village in Siaya County holding hands with a gentleman,that is enough to raise eyebrows.I have nothing against men who prefer their shit being pushed up their stomachs but I am of the opinion that your casual dismissal of those objecting homosexuality is to the least unjust.Their consolation is that we have the law that will protect everyone from negative aggression against minorities.So my appeal is that you try and be less cynical in your anti-homophobia crusade and folks may just try and hear you out.
    I'm not speaking from any religious or traditional platforms and I have lots of gay colleagues.My two cents!es.You've travelled wide and your exposure has given you the chance to be liberal.BUT,,,bring yourself to our level.The fact that there are still people that refer to ipads,iphones,computers and cellphones using the collective term 'machines' should inform you that most are still in the dark.Now picture this I go to Dibuoro village in Siaya County holding hands with a gentleman,that is enough to raise eyebrows.I have nothing against men who prefer their shit being pushed up their stomachs but I am of the opinion that your casual dismissal of those objecting homosexuality is to the least unjust.Their consolation is that we have the law that will protect everyone from negative aggression against minorities.So my appeal is that you try and be less cynical in your anti-homophobia crusade and folks may just try and hear you out.
    I'm not speaking from any religious or traditional platforms and I have lots of gay colleagues.My two cents!

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  9. This is great, Andrea! I also always like to point out that there are a number of Biblical instructions that are now irrelevant and not followed - i.e. eating pork and shellfish (Leviticus), wearing gold (Timothy), GETTING DIVORCED, touching a menstruating woman (Levitius, Ezekiel), etc. Clearly homophobic citations of scripture are highly selective.

    At the same time, I also agree that Christianity should have no say in matters of state.

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  10. Okoth, it's interesting that you bring up traveling and culture: When I first went to Uganda in 1999, I was quite (and pleasantly) surprised by what a liberal society it is - you regularly see men walking down the road holding hands. Of course it didn't take me long to understand that what would have been an expression of a gay relationship back where I come from is nothing of the sort in Uganda.

    And Uganda is also a good example about legislation protecting minority rights - or not, if you have followed the development of the anti-homosexuality bill. And you know that David Kato was beaten to death with a hammer.

    Men preferring to have their shit shoved up their stomachs: see point 8. Many straight guys are quite interested in shoving shit up women's stomachs, to stick with your terminology.
    And there is also the point that homosexuality isn't just about sex. It's more profoundly about who you fall in love with. Not sure if you've ever been in love and in a relationship? If so, you know how you feel about that person.

    I realise that there are cultural transitions. But that's a different strand of discussion - and I also find that despite all the public venom, many people I know in Kenya kinda-know of gay people, and happily have them in their environment - as long as their sexuality is not discussed.

    In this post, I have lined up points that are made by homophobes over and over and over again. I think they are invalid for the reasons I outlined. I stand by that.

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  11. doctors warning ! a homosexual lifestyle is dangerous to your health !!!

    ever heard of the unique illnesses suffered by gay men.google it and if that doesnt get you i dont know what will.

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  12. No, I have never heard of that disease and this is also one of the laziest comments one could possibly make. If you have an argument to make, spell out that mysterious disease or go away.

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  13. Andrea, what do you do when you feel hard-pressed by life and down-trodden, or when you feel like a loser? Don't you think there's a higher being that can bail you out in such situations? There is God. You've got to believe in God, whoever or whatever you perceive Him to be.

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    1. thats all we need...evangelical proselytism...that automatically turns you angry, frustrated, bible thumpingly intolerant...all in the name of a loving God that christians misrepresent with their bigotry and crassness

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  14. Judy, I don't *have* to believe anything. And it's really none of your concern what I believe or don't believe, because that's not the subject of this blog post. You're not addressing my arguments.

    My argument is that you can't use biblical requirements for secular legislation. A state's legislation needs to apply to everyone, not just Christians - and non-Christians shouldn't be forced to adhere to Christians requirements. Non-Christians includes atheists, Hindus, Moslems and everyone else. If you're a Christian and your church says no gay anything, then that's fine for you. But it shouldn't be anybody else's problem.

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  15. Let me wonder aloud: Andrea, must you always be right? That sounds much like a compulsive psychological disorder. I would oppose gays, not because the state or a religion taught me so, but because it is a difficult idea to wrap my mind around. Just like you suffer no fools, I suffer no gays around me. Simple. We can let the homosexuals be, but just not in our midst. If you can live your life disgusted at foolishness, which is a natural and more pervasive weakness of man, cannot I similarly but in a different direction, simply abhor gays and lesbians? For this, I doubt that I owe anyone any explanations, except my innate belief that their 'bell-curve' minority confirms the average inferiority of their choice against mine. Honestly, dropping names of gays is like I dropping names of fools. It proves nothing, except that both fools and gays can succeed and live to old age. Just because something is done by 'The Prime Minister of Gayland' does not make it right. Molestation of a woman was reported of the Head of the IMF, I hear! We do not have to be right, but we have an inalienable right to our social norms. I do not like gays, and that is the end of the story. Your guile and pre-school-clever ripostes are an intrusion into my people's freedom of conscience. Well, just like another person's foolishness grates so terribly against your fine senses. Gays are fools. We should not waste our time defending them, because they are a cost to progress.

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  16. George, I will defend a point if I think I'm right, whether that's on fiscal policy or civil rights. Why else have an opinion? Or a discussion?

    You're free to abhor gay people and not hang out with them. But that's pretty irrelevant to a discussion of civil rights. Law can't be based on who you abhor or not. Law can't be based on me thinking, perhaps, that black and brown are a bit disgusting and shouldn't sit in the same bus with me. There's a long, complex body of knowledge and discussion of human and civil rights, and your argument 'I abhor them' isn't really relevant.

    And, I note, you've not actually addressed any of my arguments. You just say 'I don't like them'. Guess what. I don't like going to football matches. So I don't.

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    1. Active Partner, the reason why you find it hard to wrap the idea of homosexuality around your head, is precisely because some source or other taught you so. Whether that source of knowledge is religion or science is superfluous. Which is why, for example, the post- coital behaviour of praying mantis cited by Andrea isn't a hard idea to wrap your head around; nothing has taught you differently, and it seems completely natural to you. As for your abhorence of gays, who gave you the idea that you're required to like them? In fact, that's the whole point of this argument, that they can exist and thrive and live their lives, your abhorence notwithstanding. Coz that's the beauty of a civilized society.

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  17. I wonder why it is so difficult for people to understand that just as they have a right to believe in whatever belief system they want to - religeon included, then so does the next person have a right to their sexuality! Imposing your beliefs on other people, is infringing on their rights. So that if a 'christian' thinks that homosexuality is wrong, then good for them, but that doesn't mean they should impose their 'belief' on the next person. Secondly, straight people show their strightness everyday...so why can't gays? Think about it...straight people can hold hands, kiss in public, and it is OK for straight people to walk up to each other and hit on each other.....so why should it be any different for gay people?

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  18. Thought you may also enjoy this http://madiang.wordpress.com/2014/01/22/fuck-i-am-heterosexual-long-live-homosexuals-too/

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  19. There are rights that are inalienable in our constitution and I hold that they should not be violated come what may, which is why I oppose a similar bill to the Ugandan one being brought to the Kenyan legislature. If Irungu Kang'ata's utterances are anything to go by, it is a matter of when rather than whether such a bill is brought to Kenya. Do I care what two consenting adults do with their private life? No. Is it a lifestyle that I would condone? Absolutely not. That is what tolerance is all about, I don't have to agree with you to fight for your rights.

    That said, I find the discussion on homosexuality, sex and relationships to be one of the most insincere discussions that one can ever engage in online. There are a lot of issues that are raised that are dismissed out of hand without giving much thought. For instance, there are some sexual habits that are criminalised in the most liberal of nations to which you can apply the classical pro-gay rights line of reasoning (consenting adults, no religious texts, etc) why the hell are they still considered to be offences? The likely response I will get is that we are not discussing those other minorities.

    Second, with the absence of religious & cultural influences that are the general basis for most laws, science provides the basis. What we are told for now is that people are born gay, really? The simple question will be how it is acquired if we rule out birth & genetics.

    Finally, the public health aspect. Let us take the HIV pandemic for example. A few years ago, the CDC in Kenya did research and from their findings they stated that men who have sex with other men accounted for 15% of all new infections. That was subsequently dismissed as a symptom of Kenya's homophobia that drives gays underground. Is that the case? If you look at the reports on gays vis a vis the HIV pandemic, they are all equally grim homophobia or no homophobia. In France for instance it was reported that the risk of HIV on gays was 60 times that of heteros. In the US MSMs contributed to 78% of all new HIV cases among men, the aggregate was 53%. In the liberal Netherlands the contribution of the gay community to new infections is between 50-60%. So, homophobia is clearly not the reason for this problem. Now, what problem does this pose? The same study conducted by CDC Kenya uncovered that the same gay men in Kenya often have unprotected sex with other heterosexual men who then infect their wives & girlfriends thus considerably increasing the risk to the general society. Can we wish away these findings?

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  20. Andrea, you cannot rid a person of an idea once it has made a home in their minds, case in point head /scull. It's like a disease so impertinent! If they talk about legalization of murder, it means they are capable of just that! #smallmindsbigheads

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  21. you took a lot of time explaining 'dont rub it on my face'. That is my biggest issue with those not straight.

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  22. Nice blog ..... Good article to support your 101. http://m.mgafrica.com/article/2015-07-07-africa-dont-you-think-this-anti-gay-bashing-is-getting-a-bittiresome#.VZ49IfnDrFN

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